Ep 94 - A Survey Course Into the Final Fantasy Franchise (Part 1): Intros and Elements

When I was in middle school, I was picked on. A lot. I was one of the kids you get a reaction from if you push the right buttons, and boy did my classmates ever do that. Aside from the lockers and the hallways and after gym class, one of the tensest moments of my upbringing was the walk home from the bus. It was only three blocks from the bus stop on Chester Ave to my house off of First Ave in Bloomfield, New Jersey, but it felt like an eternity because every day one kid always followed, usually in silence. And for some reason, it terrified. Nowadays a therapist would say I had anxiety and given some of my current mental situations Yeah, that that makes a lot of sense. But back then it was just fear And even then I understood the fake it until you make it situation I knew if I look back or even worse broke out in a run That kid would likely give chase He was just an intimidating figure If he calls my name, don't look back. If he says something mean, don't react. Because it's a long walk from that bus stop to my house. And I knew if I made it to the second cross street, Abington, he would likely turn right and I would go straight. And by the time I reached my doorstep, I'd be fine. No need to tell anybody about those tense two blocks. But those two Jersey blocks were a daily torture, possibly of my own making. Now this may sound crazy, but the one thing that kept me safe, the one thing that kept me reacting rationally was Final Fantasy on the Nintendo Entertainment System. Whenever my anxiety flared up, I'd pretend the warriors of light were flanking me on all sides. I'd always have the black mage to my right ready to throw lit too in case my bully came after me and the white lage to my left was prepared to heal in case things got really heated and the warrior was always leading the way, broadsword in hand. All in their pixelated 8 -bit glory. They were my mental protectors, a shield against an evil unknown. And while I should probably look back at those days with a bit of sheepishness, frankly I am only filled with gratitude, grateful for these fictional escorts walking me home. To say Final Fantasy is a meaningful franchise would be a terrible understatement. And there's no way this podcast would be complete without a massive deep dive in the hopes of hearing similar stories from other people. So let's do this. On this episode of A Gamer Looks at 40, we begin our journey through the length and breadth of the Final Fantasy series. In part one, we'll be meeting some of the regular guests and... attempting to answer the age -old question, what makes a Final Fantasy game a Final Fantasy game? Time to brush those chocobos, polish your airship, and hope you have just enough potions to make it through alive as we begin a survey course into the Final Fantasy franchise, part one, Introductions and Elements. Starting us off on our journey is Julian from the brand new Stage Select podcast. I am so excited. Julian got this project off the ground. So long, nerds without pants, but hello Stage Select and I cannot wait to hear what this show is all about. I know nothing about it other than it's him and Tyrone just doing their thing. It's a variety show. Can't wait. I hope you check it out. Stage Select pod on Twitter is where you can find him. Julian is going to be a huge part of this series because Final Fantasy is a huge part of his life and I'm so glad he gets the chance to introduce the beginnings of this. After Julian, Games with Coffee shares some of his original impressions of Final Fantasy, followed by Wade, also known as Professor Noctus on Twitter, talks about some of his work that he's done with Final Fantasy in his academia, and then finally the Let's Play Princess shares her first brushes. with this incredible franchise. When I, when I first was talking about doing shows and long series, I think I might've mentioned final fantasy a while ago. You said I need to be involved. If you do final fantasy, you need to be here and here you are, man. So thanks for taking the time. I appreciate it. Yeah. Thanks for having me. I'm very excited to do this. It's funny because I know that, cause I think you had done a poll with like listeners and, um, between this and Zelda and Zelda one out, um, which I was, little miffed about because I'm not the biggest Zelda fan. But after listening to the whole Zelda series and then like kind of I've been, you know, actually finally playing the Final Fantasy from one all the way through for the first time really ever like in order. It actually they make a really good pairing because Zelda is a series that I personally I feel relatively the same throughout. Like it hits like. the same core beats in every, you know, cause you're basically retelling the same story every time with a different link and a different Zelda, but it's, you know, it's a story of souls and stories eternally retold. Someone got that. They're giggling. Where Final Fantasy is known for, you know, kind of reinventing itself with each game. So I think they make for really good bookends. Yeah, I definitely, it was funny because when I first did the poll, this was a long time ago, Zelda won by one vote. Ah. It was dead even until the very end when Zelda kind of won out. And I'm going to have to do another poll because there's the next two. There are two options for like the third series I do, but I have to worry about this Final Fantasy first. I can't think that far ahead, even though I do. Final Fantasy is as a series, so I do want to start with some generalities, obviously, and then we'll dig into the different games because you've played almost all of my thing at this point. With very few exceptions. I was actually just thinking before the interview, it's like, should I go chronological order on which ones I played? Yeah, in terms of order of play. Yeah, basically. Yeah, go for it. If you can do it, go for it. Oh, yeah, for sure. OK, so seven was first for me. Following that was Final Fantasy 8 when that came out. That was a blockbuster, if I recall correctly. Then it was Final Fantasy IX when it came out, and that was like 1999 -2000, right? Then we got the Final Fantasy Anthologies, which came with Final Fantasy IV, and Chrono Trigger, which in some circles people will consider a Final Fantasy. I will consider it here, because it is a wonderful game. And this is the PlayStation 1 version, where it had the absolute atrocious loading times to go into the menu. I didn't care, I thought it was normal. So that was my first time ever playing Krone Sugar. So, okay, so from there, Final Fantasy Origins, so that's Final Fantasy I and Final Fantasy II, which were actually ports of the original Final Fantasies for the WonderSwan Color. So the WonderSwan Color, they did remakes of Final Fantasy I and II first, and then that got ported to the PlayStation in the form of Final Fantasy Origins. Gotcha. And then through the magic of emulation, Final Fantasy VI and Final Fantasy V, originals on the SNES. And then it would be Final Fantasy X, that would be around 2002, 2003 -ish, 2003, because 2002 I got Kingdom Hearts, I remember now. So 2003, Final Fantasy, Final Fantasy X. Then from Final Fantasy X, we delve into the GBA games. So the GBA games, they did some rem - they did some... It basically remade the game. The first Final Fantasy, Final Fantasy I, Final Fantasy II, that was under Final Fantasy Dawn of Souls for the Game Boy Advance. Then there was Final Fantasy IV Advance, Final Fantasy V Advance. In between V and VI was Final Fantasy III for the Nintendo DS. Then Final Fantasy VI Advance. Somewhere in the middle of all that was Final Fantasy XII, so it probably would have been... I'm gonna say close to 2004 that was released. Yeah, so it would have been right before Final Fantasy V Advance or what was the other one I said? No, it would have been right around where Final Fantasy IV, right after Final Fantasy IV Advance. That's where they got it. And then there was Dirge of Cerberus for Final Fantasy VII, right after that. And then we're going to university years here. So Final Fantasy 13, 13 -2, Crisis Core was in between 13 -2 and that. Let's see what else was there. So 13 -2 and then, and then Mrs. Coffee got me, Lightning Returns, Final Fantasy 13 as a Valentine's Day present after we got married. That was 2010. So 2011, 2011. No, no, yeah. Yeah, 2011, right. Oh no, sorry, it was 2012, nevermind. So, okay, there, and then there was Final Fantasy Type Zero, which was about 2016, and then 2017 Final Fantasy XV. And then from there would be Final Fantasy VII Remake, which was 2020, I streamed that. And then just three weeks ago, Final Fantasy XVI. I got a PS5, by the way. Oh, there you go. So now you can finally get Final Fantasy XVI going. That's... That is a lineage. I love how you played four and five on emulation. Because based on your timeline, that's around, I want to say 2005 maybe? 2002, 2003. When emulation was in its infancy. So you were early to the emulation game. Yeah, very much so. It wasn't four and five, it was actually five and six. I have four. Five and six rather. No, that's fine. Before I had physical and that was the... It was actually pretty difficult, that version on the PlayStation, compared to, I think, the original Super Nintendo version that was released in North America. Or I couldn't have that backwards, I'm not sure. Either way, it was tough, I remember. But 5 and 6, yeah, those were... Those are, of course, the more memorable ones and yeah, played them on emulation. Hey, what's up? My name is Wade, AKA Professor Noctis over on socials and all that kind of stuff. And I, weirdly enough, I am somebody that's really into Final Fantasy in a very public way, it seems. I never would have imagined that. I started playing video games and my dad brought home a regular Nintendo entertainment system when I was five years old, was hooked ever since. And Out of a serendipitous trip to Blockbuster Video, I played Final Fantasy IV with him and he helped me learn how to read and playing Final Fantasy IV, teaching me words like behemoth and Leviathan and Bahamut. Nice. And it got me really interested in mythology, got me interested in certainly the stories of the games, but I became a Final Fantasy fan for life at that point. And then when I was in college, I took religious studies majors and classes, went on got graduate degrees in religious studies. And while I was in a doctoral program working on my dissertation, Final Fantasy 15 came out and I played a little bit of it. And this is a much longer story, but as I played it, I was like, my religious studies work comes into play here. And long story short, I wrote a dissertation combining sacred kingship narratives of the ancient Near East and Final Fantasy 15 in an education format. And that's how I became a doctor and a professor of religion and video games. And here I am. Here you are, the professor himself. So you teach at Alabama, right? The University of Alabama, Roll Tide. Yep. Yep. And so I definitely want to explore that, but that might be for a different... Because I'm trying to do the initial stuff first. But man, that is fascinating. Was it a seminary degree or was it more of just like religious studies? A little both. A little bit of both. I studied grad religion at Emory and then I did doctoral work at Asbury, which is classically a seminary. But Emory is a little bit more interdisciplinary. So I got a full religious overview at Emory. Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, Judaism. Islam, I mean you name it all those things so fascinating and the fact that there's so many parallels between that and video games is Really really interesting. I know red does a lot of stuff with that on his house his shows as well Which is just that was completely core of our friendship. That's awesome. Yeah, it's fantastic and it's so interesting and yeah, absolutely My first point in the series, much in the exact same way my first time with a Mega Man game, was going to a KB Toys, because my mom bought these together, Mega Man X4 and Final Fantasy VII, which I feel like is going to be a lot of people's answers is probably Final Fantasy VII. You'd be surprised. There's a lot of old people like me who started with the very, very first one. But we'll go ahead and, so Final Fantasy VII, which is actually a... Great one -two punch, by the way. X4 and Final Fantasy VII. Pretty darn good. Yeah, I remember playing a lot of X7 and getting to Cosmo Canyon for the first time and not being able to beat... Oh, God! I don't know the name of the boss, but it's the rival tribe to Red XIII's people. And so I restarted the game, I was like, eh. I think I restarted the game at an earlier point because the Materia Keeper, or whatever it's called, the big huge blue scorpion thing in the Nibelheim caves, also messed me up. So in sixth grade, I have a distinct memory of being in school and somebody else was talking about Final Fantasy VII, also about the Cosmo Canyon boss. I'm like, how do you beat that thing? And it's like, oh, it's undead. Just use a phoenix down. I'm like, wait, what? Oh! Whoa. Oh, man, that's great. I'm kind of hoping that that stays in the second game that they're making at the end of the year. I really hope they do. I hope they keep some of that stuff. Oh, that'd be really fun. Jean Natak was the character there. That's the boss's name. Yeah, Jean Natak. Undead, use the phoenix down, over and done with. I love that. Or use cure too, and it does like a thousand out of its 4 ,000 health bar. Sure. Oh, that's really fun. I love that. That's cool. So you gave it a shot. Now you would, your, your mom had purchased this for you. So this wasn't a rental. It was not a rental. I don't think I've ever rented a file fast again. Yeah. Uh, so that, so from there, it sounds like your, your fandom really kind of grew throughout. Did you play them all throughout upon release? Did you take breaks in between kind of how did that work out? Uh, that was really the only PlayStation one version I did. I think somewhere in the old house. the person from the rental story of Metroid Prime 3 gave me a copy of Final Fantasy 8 and I don't know, there's just something about that game. I couldn't even get out of the whatever it's called Balmad Garden or the starting location. Just like the battle systems, the whole draw system. I didn't like anything about it. Interesting. Nothing rented from borrowed from somebody. Only the first disc, but I liked what I played and I do want to go back to it. Okay. But yeah, through then, whether or not I've beaten it, gotten halfway through it, or somewhere in between, I have done every game from 10 to now. except for 11. Okay, so you never played and then do 11 of a time. Okay. No, but I have done 10 up to a point, 12 up to a point, and then I let somebody borrow it and they shattered the disc. Not their fault. Okay, okay. 13 I've done the entire trilogy, 14 I'm still playing, I still love, 15 I did in some of the DLCs, 16 I can't. I'll wait for 16. Okay, you're excited for 16. That's really cool. And then I've gone back via one way or another of the Game Boy Advance remakes or so and I've played one to completion, two I either, I don't want to say beat that, four I got to the final boss and kind of hit a point, six I've beaten so many times that I've lost count. Same, same. And five I was recording stuff for it and my Mac just decided didn't. want to use memory or RAM anymore to. Oh, my computer just pretty much went, I don't know, emulation and recording your screen. So within like the next month or two, I'm probably just going to buy the pixel remasters and I'm going to suck it up to. I'm just going to suck it up. I know I am because I actually turned on Final Fantasy one, the original. when a few days ago on emulation, because I haven't, of course, and I'm playing like, I just, I think there's quality of life stuff that's just, I don't, I don't know. I don't know. I was gonna say, besides that side stuff, I've done Crisis Core, of course, Dirge of Cerberus. Now looking at the list, Dissidia, Duodecim and Opera Omnia, which Opera Omnia is a gacha game that is very, very lenient. And very, very chill. It's actually really good. Cool. Every version of Deep Rhythm, if I had the money, I mean, I have the money, if I could find somebody who's selling it, I would just buy the arcade version, because I love that game to death. Continuing the conversation about our introductions to the Final Fantasy franchise is Kyle from the RPG show and games my mom found, followed by author and gaming journalist Aiden Mower, and then concluding with James and JJ of the Retrofits channel on YouTube. So let's just start with Final Fantasy then. What was your first experience with it? Yeah. Sounds like it was early on in the life cycle of the game. What was your first experience? Yeah, sure was. I remember this pretty specifically because I had an uncle who had a girlfriend at the time who decided to trade a six or seven -year -old me Final Fantasy Mystic Quest for my copy of Spider-Man X -Men Arcade's Revenge. Back in the day, I would say... probably lost out on that trade, honestly. I was way more of a Spider -Man fan at the time. Being six or seven years old, the game was way, way too advanced for me. And Mystic Quest is honestly one of the worst Final Fantasies out there too. But playing it as a kid, like I just really got into it. I thought it was, it was wild compared to, you know, like Mario's or Top Gun or Ninja Gaiden or, you know, Tecmo Super Bowl that I was playing for a time. Everything was just a little different. You had to actually read while playing, which I thought was a huge developmental tool at a young age for me. And having the freedom to move in like a 3D world versus side scroller at that age, it was just like, oh my gosh, what is this? So really after that came out, I kind of got into RPGs in general and searched them out throughout the years. Had a number of years where I didn't play too many Final Fantasies because again, I was probably just too young at the time. But played a lot of stuff, Earthbound, Super Mario RPG, Soul Blazer, ones like that that were RPG, RPG -esque. And that really got me hooked on that sort of gaming system simply from getting a bad trade when I was really young. Don't you love how the things you end up falling in love with happen from the strangest situations? So interesting. I love that. Now, I know as little about D &D as I do about WoW, so this is a very fascinating conversation. But I interesting you meant you'd and this might ring true or ring correct for other people listening. So that's why I'm going to bring it up because I genuinely don't know. You're saying that the original Final Fantasy was built on a certain style or version of Dungeons and Dragons? I mean, like very likely a lot of the RPGs are, but it's more in the aspect that you had spell levels and spell slots. So if you have a, I think in Final Fantasy, they had up to fifth level. Don't quote me on that. I'm terrible. But if you had a fifth level spell, you'd only have two fifth level spell slots. So you could only cast two of those level spells, but you'd have eight first levels. And that's kind of how the D &D system worked or works for spell slots for wizards. Yeah. Interesting. Okay, cool. So were there any other similarities as far as the mechanics go? Again, this is just a world I don't know. And I'm just curious if there were. Oh, I mean, otherwise in a way, yeah. I mean, most systems are, it's just D and D you roll percentile. So if something has, you know, like a base 10, you get a plus five to it versus a 20, you have to roll a five or better. So you've got a 25 % chance. It's really that's how the mathematics of a lot of games work. Even for things like Madden, like your character will have a 98 % chance to catch a pass and then you add the variables and you randomize it. And then that's the outcome. So like in a weird way, a lot of games are based on D &D in that sense of just predicting randomization through. Well, yeah. Yeah, predicting randomization. Yeah, that's interesting. I had a conversation with the. one of the designers of the NHL series and the early Madden series a few months ago. And he was talking about how everything is based on the system. And just like what you were saying, how everyone has these has, they have points and everyone has values and then they run it through randomizers to simulate what it would really, I just find that I just wanted to touch on that because that's, I haven't really heard that before. Oh yeah. To a certain type of D and D. Yeah. If you want to get into that, look at Final Fantasy Tactics. That's, that's the game for that. Yeah, so I've been a Final Fantasy fan since like the mid 90s. I got into Japanese RPGs through Final Fantasy 6. After like not liking the genre for a number of years, I first encountered it on the Game Boy with Final Fantasy Legend 2. And I had a friend, her cousin of a friend who was like, hey, play this game. And I was like, this game sucks. You know, so I went back to Ninja Turtles and Mario Super Mario Land 2 and loved those. And then... One night I had this cool older babysitter. He came over and after my little brothers were in bed, we'd always play video games. We usually played like Doom, but he brought over Final Fantasy three, five, six, five, three, popped it in the Super Nintendo. And then that was it. That was like it was over. I just loved the way that like I was a big reader as well. I liked science fiction and fantasy books. I was like, oh, this is like playing a fantasy novel. And then so at that point. forward. I was just I was obsessed with the genre and it hasn't really led up to the point where, you know, 30 years later, I wrote a book about about the genre. Yeah. So I will not last year now. Twenty twenty two in October twenty twenty two. I released my book called Fight Magic Items, the history of the history of Final Fantasy Dragon Quest and the rise of Japanese RPGs in the West. And it looks at the origins of Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest, but also sort of know, the perspective, my personal perspective of being a fan during the golden ages as these genres went from sort of like, you know, niche semi successful genres, you know, a game like Final Fantasy six could sell 600 ,000 copies, right? And sure, no trigger could sell 600 ,000 copies. And they sort of had that cap. And then Final Fantasy seven hit and that that all got blown out of the water. So it follows that trajectory of like, the games trying to break out for years and years and years and then all of a sudden having this massive blowout. success and then you know where things went from there so I you know I was able to bring my own personal history with the genre and the games into that story which I was really happy to be able to do. Final Fantasy. So what was your first touch point with Final Fantasy? JJ, we'll start with you. My first one, I believe, was... Well, first that I can remember was Final Fantasy VII. And I remember a little bit of Final Fantasy VI or III as it was called on the Super Nintendo. But I was a little too... That was mostly my older brothers playing that. Gotcha. Gotcha, gotcha. Well, you, James. My first actual touch point with the Final Fantasy series was because I wasn't a Nintendo kid, I was a Sega kid because I was extreme with like 6Xs. We were the exact opposites and growing up I was Nintendo and then PlayStation, he was Sega. Sega, then PlayStation. So actually my first one was also through my older brother because he showed me Final Fantasy Tactics. And that was when I sort of, because I was already in love with like story -based games and RPGs and stuff, like Phantasy Star and that sort of thing. But Sega Genesis didn't have like a huge wealth of those. So I kind of got stuck in my own rut of thinking until he showed me that game. And that's when I started going back and... Right as the PlayStation came out, we had the re -releases through Final Fantasy Chronicles and Anthology, and I started devouring everything that was four, four, five, six, seven, eight. I played. You don't sound too enthusiastic about that. You sound less than excited. Look, I... You shouldn't give someone the best spells in the game and then tell them, oh by the way, if you junction them to your stats, it'll boost your stats too. Well, that's awesome. What happens if I use them? Your stats go down. Do they have to? Can I? Why can't I just use the spell? I did this for the last seven games. I did this. That's so funny. Yeah, I mean, when you can beat the entire game on like level 10. It kind of loses some of the appeal of Final Fantasy. Oh, right. The scaling. Yeah, they had the they had the power scaling for all the monsters, not just area. All the monsters and bosses scaled with your level. So you could you could actually use Squall to wipe out all the party members except him and just rush through the game. and beat it at like level 30. That's really funny. I had no idea because it would de scale all the enemies down to 10 because they would only be a third of schools level. It was based on your party level. Oh, that's bonkers. Boy, I had no idea you could power level like that. That's a crazy exploit. Oh, yeah. There were so many. If there's one thing that JJ and I both love, it's the idea of how much you can break a game and it still stays legitimate to the game's original design. And Final Fantasy 8 may not be in my top five or even top 10 Final Fantasies, but it does have that. It was definitely interesting and not to mention the card game which was the most complicated one Oh, triple triad, yeah. my opinion. As we embark upon this brand new season of A Gamer Looks at 40, I would be remiss, yay negligent if I didn't shout out my wonderful, smashing, and amazing patrons. They include Terry Kinnair, Greg Seward of the Player One Podcast and Generation 16 series of videos, Games with Coffee, the Let's Play Princess, BT Gobbles, Tim Knowles, formerly of the leadest, Sadface, Julian of the Stage Select Podcast, Happyface, Seth Sergel of the All In Podcast and the one and only fabulous and debonair Pete Harney. If you would like to join these wonderful smashing people in their generosity towards this show, then go to Patreon .com forward slash a gamer looks at 4040. Check out the tiers and sign up today for only three clams or bones or whatever you want to call them. You can get early access to episodes, a special section of my discord and some other fun little nifty gifties. And for two dollars more, you get two extra podcasts a month, Rollin' Credits, where I talk with a guest about a game I recently beat, and Descendants of Non-Sekhwaters, and the Uncut Archives, which are the full uncut interviews that this show is comprised of. Really cool for those who want to see how the sausage is made. That is the sausage maker. Thanks again for checking out the show and enjoy the rest of the episode. As we continue our deep dive into the elements that make Final Fantasy, well, Final Fantasy, I thought it would be good to find out just like I did in the Zelda series, what aspects of the game would we consider load bearing? What are those pieces of the experience that hold the most weight that if you're going to get anything right, this is what you need to get right. Starting us off on this segment of the show is Josh from the Still Loading Podcast. followed by Kyle and journalist, content creator, voice actor, and podcast host. What else does he do? I don't know. Perhaps he fights ninjas. It could be that. Mikhail Casanova. Oh, that's a good question. If anything, I would say the battle system more than anything. And I feel like that's the same with almost every type of RPG, but Final Fantasy, what's interesting about their battle systems is they always feel like they kind of... push the envelope a little bit. As opposed to other RPG series, generally the battle systems don't change from series to series, or from game to game, excuse me. There might be minor tweaks here and there, but Final Fantasy is interesting because if you look at Final Fantasy 7, 8, 9, and 10, it is vastly different in how they approach combat in those games. The materia system versus the junction system versus, I guess what is that even in nine the crystal system because it's interesting where it's like, you know, the equipment you you wear determines what abilities you can like level up and type of it's a little different and then 10 has the sphere grid. So right there all so so so different. So to me the battle system is what makes Final Fantasy stand out just because tons of RPGs have ultra bosses and bosses and mini games and summons and a great soundtrack and villains and stories and party members. But Final Fantasy, I think the thing that makes it so interesting is that the battle system changes so frequently and becomes so varied from game to game that it really kind of sets the series apart because you never know what you're going to get until you play it. No, I think that makes a lot of sense. And I think what that tells me about you as actually like a game player, as someone who plays games, you sounds like you appreciate play. Like how it feels in your hand sounds important to you because the battle system is our main verb with interacting with the game, right? So I think that's an interesting thing. And it tells me a lot about you again, as someone who plays games for you, it feels like play is vitally important to you. Absolutely. Because the thing, I've had this argument with a friend before where we've debated like, what is the most important aspect of a video game? Like what is the, I mean, Now, to be clear, it doesn't mean that what your favorite is. Your favorite can be very different. But to me, the most important aspect of a video game is the gameplay. Otherwise, that is the sole thing that makes a game a game. If you care more about story, if story is more important than game, then watch a movie or read a book. And listen, I understand story is important and I love a game with a good story. You know, Last of Us is one of my favorite series. I'm trying to think of an even like the Ori series as a really great like story for how simplistic it is. But I love games with good stories. That's very it's important to me. But in terms of like what makes it stand out from the rest is its gameplay and especially in the RPG genre, like storylines, every game is going to have a good not every game, but it's and I'm not saying it's easy to have a good story, but like every game has a story. Not every game is going to have the same battle system and Final Fantasy. Like even compared to like other RPGs, like I said before, they kind of keep their games play systems, battle systems, for the most part, pretty similar. Dragon Quest is a famous example of that. It's relatively the same. But Final Fantasy, it's still Wild West. You never know what you're going to get with every entry. Exactly. And I think that makes a lot of... As somebody who's experienced that the entire, most of the length and breadth of Final Fantasy games, what would you say, I don't wanna say what makes a Final Fantasy Final Fantasy, but if you had to pick one or two load bearing requirements, like a Final Fantasy game has to have XYZ or has to represent XYZ, in your opinion, what makes a Final Fantasy Final Fantasy? What is that connective tissue? That's fair, you know, I took some time on this one and it is a tough question, you are right. The series has changed a lot of times over the years and it's really hard to tie down like single ideas. So I'm gonna take this from a little bit of a technical standpoint first. I think to be a Final Fantasy game, you have to have a story that's centered around crystals and their magical properties. I think that's really the essence of Final Fantasy at the end of the day. I mean, every single mainline game has some sort of crystal story. whether it be materia making magic, whether it be drawing magic from the enemies in eight, the espers in six, in ten finding the crystals and destroying, or getting rid of everything that involves with that with sin. But it's always, that's kind of the one thing technically that has been the common factor of them all. More personal stuff, I really think Final Fantasy just have to have a good story with characters that develop and have a world that's really well built. I feel like it's important for the games to just be able to drop into something and realize there's like a history behind it by simply talking to the people in town and you know finding this mythos along the way that that makes everything make sense. I think Final Fantasy does that really well and that's a main or big reason I really enjoy a lot of their games. I do think that you have to have some sort of Chocobo and Moogle, you know, you just got to get that in there. That's pretty mainline for them. And I think another big one too, summoning systems. I think the summoning system is a big Final Fantasy thing, usually tied in with the crystals somehow, especially in games like VI. You know, you just got to get that whole summoning perspective in that. So I think those are kind of like the biggest, biggest ones overall. Like I said, there's two different generations of Sakaguchi -san era and then I would say the Nomura Katase era For me, I always default to the Sakaguchi era mainly because it was all about the pure fantasy elements of it. It was, you know, whatever the conflict was, but it was like, here are the characters. We show you the villain, we show you. the, you know, the way the story unfolded, it was very, in a way, if you go from Final Fantasy one to 10, you kind of know the footnotes or the beats of how the story is going to go. It's going to get really grandiose. Then we have the, you know, reveals, shockers, such and such. And it flowed a certain way where it was just like textbook, perfect poetry emotion. So story, themes, characters. The the character development they start off one way midpoint they're here End of the game. They're completely different. Mm -hmm It was and then the biggest factor that really brought these characters to life because again, you know for those who don't know voice acting wasn't really the thing back then the music the music Really just you know, we lost of song His music, the way he, he, he just crafted it and he's, I credit his music. So how I gotten to do it, is it was just. It brought every scene to life. And you knew an, an Ui Masu's like song or, or, or OST, you knew it by certain keynotes, you know, that you, you would hear. Whereas the Katase Nomura is very experimental, very different, not as structurally coherent as the Sakaguchi-san era in my opinion. Sure. A lot of different composers, nothing wrong with them, very different. Right. And Final Fantasy XIII has one of the most banger OSTs. That's great. That's really good. Regardless of how you may feel, you know as an audience how you may feel about Final Fantasy 13 as a whole that soundtrack. Mm -hmm chef's kiss. Yeah just I Feel like post sakeguchi -san like it's just very different, you know And I don't really know what to put my finger on it, but I feel like one to ten story be character development character arcs the motivations The plot twists that a lot of times you don't see coming. Yeah. Like insects like, oh, the world actually gets destroyed. Literally you lose. You lose. And you're like, literally lose. Yes. You're like, wait, uh, we're supposed to win, which it was, it subverted your expectations. Oh yeah. You know, and which I'm gonna say this and a lot of people may not agree with me. Final Fantasy six over seven, any day of the week. No argument here. No argument here. Final Fantasy 6 is going to be, it's going to be at least three episodes. They have to be. There's no choice. There's no way I can, because I don't do six hour episodes. So it's, it has to be. It was formative for me and for a lot of people. And I totally, I definitely agree with that. Continuing the conversation is games with coffee followed by James and then a brand new friend to the podcast, YouTuber and Twitch streamer Dan Carnett. If you had to pick one element of the Final Fantasy experience, right? Graphics, sound, story, et cetera. What would you say the most load bearing element is? What is the one element that Final Fantasy consistently gets right? Music. It has to be music, right? It has to be music. Yeah, it has to be. Banger after banger every moment. You can listen to a song and you can remember the exact moment where you were when this played in the story. For me, what really cemented Final Fantasy VII as my favorite was the song on that day five years ago. And this actually plays on the train. going back to Sector 7, just after you bomb the Mako reactor, sorry, Mako, Mako Reactor 1, and you're talking with Barrett on the train, and Cloud goes up and he leans out and he's like, it's like this train. It can't go anywhere except where its rails can take it. And that music is playing in the background there, and it's just like, it's such a powerful moment for me. Sure. That was just like, that was the moment where I was just like, okay, I need to play this game. Like, I need to spend every waking moment in this world. I love it. So, yeah, no, and I can think of, I have the entire, I have like virtually almost every single Final Fantasy catalog in my brain and I know exactly where it was and what I was doing during that time. I mean, I'm not gonna go into semantics about that. I might just be, I might just be straight wild in here, yeah, but. but the music, that's just how powerful the music is in final fantasy. It's like, you can't have a final fantasy without a music. Yeah. I think that really is one of those timeless sort of things because the music of final fantasy is indeed timeless. Like you can, and you can, we could debate graphical styles and art design and setting and definitely could be story and character, but man, the music of final fantasy is, is legendary and truly timeless. Um, in a way most video game soundtracks or themes are not. The only one that really comes close to that is Zelda. I think Zelda and Final Fantasy are the two that are in a league of their own when it comes to music. Absolutely, 100%. Yeah, in my opinion. No, I share that opinion with you as well, too. Both series, they nail their unique styles of music and it just helps... accentuate the story that they want to present. Of course, the styles are varied, they're different from one another, but they have so much individuality and they have so much presence that you can, again, you can just listen to it and you can think back to where in the story that particular piece was played. and it may or may not stir up emotions. I know for me with syrup emotions on how I felt during those times. Sure. So. Sure. And music is amazing at that because it is that universal. It connects to your, it connects to your emotions. So solidly and viscerally almost that you can make those connections really easy. No, totally. I totally get that for sure. And that's cool that your brother, you guys had an opportunity to play that together and use it as it sounds like. Sometimes, brothers, I had a younger brother, my brother's five years younger than I am. And we always had a really good relationship, I felt. But it was sometimes, you know, brothers can be contentious. It's just how it works, right? There's a little competitiveness there, especially if there's an older and a younger. I was the older, so I'm sure my brother has a different perspective than I do. But games are one of those things that we always connected on and easily connected on. So I think it's cool that you had that experience as well. What do you think is the most load bearing aspect of a Final Fantasy game? Which means, again, lots of elements in a Final Fantasy game. You got story, you got visuals, and music, and everything else. Of those elements, which one do you think has to be right in order for Final Fantasy to be, not to be a Final Fantasy game, but to be a good one? What did they have to nail among all those different elements of a game? Biggs and Wedge. Biggs and Wedge have to be there. Competent Sid, yes. I got that. Yeah. No, no. But story line definitely for me. That's one of the reasons why Nine is one of my absolute favorites, just because the twists and turns and the redemption and everything else in that game is just phenomenal. And Zidane also being like... every single party member's like emotional support rock while he himself is going through a massive existential crisis throughout the entire game that culminates in all seven of them coming together and being like, dude, you had us for like the last 40 hours. You don't gotta worry. We got you. We got this with you. You know, it's, it's this big, especially cause I still remember when it came out, I was like, I had just turned 11. when the game was released and and I was going through a similar kind of crisis at the time Where I was like, you know Not to get too heavy, but essentially like my my parentage and and heritage was sort of called into question by several local terrible people and You know and and I was going through a lot of doubt a lot of trouble with self -worth and that sort of thing and having that game come out like at that time and playing as Zidane and realizing that like, oh but like I'm I can still be like not just a good person but like a great person like I can help all of these great people who are also going through terrible things and and then they'll be there for me and like who cares what these dinguses think. Right. If If they were important, they wouldn't be Dinguy. And that's well said. And I think that's interesting that you found you were able to identify with that character situation and link it up to your own. And I think that's so important that games allow us to do that. That's why I like hearing those stories. So if you feel like if I don't never mind hearing those kinds of stories too, because that's the kind of stuff people don't talk about when it comes to games, right? It's. You know, yeah, this was fun, but I sound like that was really impactful to you. It sounds like it helped you through a situation. Yeah. And Tara actually has a similar kind of storyline, especially in the beginning, where it's like, but it's sort of the opposite. Like everybody has this revering kind of a point of view of her, you know, because she's inherently so powerful as somebody who has, you know, innate magic skill and. that causes her to be like, well is that the only thing that matters? Because, you know, what does that mean for me? What does that mean for you? What does that mean for the world if I am not as good a person as I think I am or want to be? You know, like big, giant, world-affecting stuff. I think that once you get past the first three, I feel like the series takes a completely different turn. And starting at Final Fantasy four or two for the those in the those naive of us in the in the 90s. in the US here, but I think right at Final Fantasy IV, it switches from kind of like a gameplay type perspective and goes into characters. And sure, later they're gonna experiment with different forms of gameplay and whatnot, but I really believe that to me, Final Fantasy is character and not just like whether it be, it builds a world, it's got all of these. unique characters that are within this world. And then starting at four specifically, they really start to have more of a, you know, a dialogue amongst themselves. And, you know, and then to me, that's when the, I don't know, it's a weird description to me because there's the sense of role playing in that, you know, the, it was originally based on taking kind of the idea of D and D and putting it to an electronic medium. And it takes that idea of role playing where it becomes less of, I guess, less of the player role playing and more of you playing through like a story. And although you're still playing the roles of the characters that are in there, their lines are scripted and everything like that. So it's not. you know, completely as open as like maybe something Baldur's Gate three ish or something nowadays, right? But to me, whenever I look at Final Fantasy as a series, it's the character, the character of the series. And I think that's a really interesting point because you mentioned that it's not like a Baldur's Gate three year old. Like I'm am like ankle deep and ankle deep. I am like knee knee to elbow deep in fallout four. Again, I can't escape it. I don't know why. I'm just like, I don't know why I've played this before, but I just, I don't know why I'm back into it, but I am. And so it's not like one of those types of situations, even though it's very scripted, you still get a real strong sense of character. And I definitely agree. I think story and character are definitely one of those load bearing trademarks throughout the entire series. Even as early as Japanese Final Fantasy II, Final Fantasy II, they go for it. Like they really go for it in a narrative sense and with characters and everything else. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. With Final Fantasy 2, it's interesting because I read this while doing some research for different reviews that I've done for the series. But on Final Fantasy 2, 4 and 6, they said that their emphasis was more on the story, the world and the characters. And on a one, three and five, it was on gameplay and improving how, how things were run. I don't know if that was something, something that somebody came up with later and tried to like, you know, retrofit it to that. But when you look at the first six games specifically in the series, um, it really holds true cause you have one, which obviously is a, it's one, um, and then if you look, if you, if you look at three, it introduces jobs. Um, and then five introduces even more complex ideas with jobs and, you know, summons and everything else like that. And you look at two, four and six, those are all the more story driven ones. And two, you have the, you know, quote unquote, you know, everybody said it's like the, the star Wars and, um, kind of, kind of idea as far as they can. You have care, you have main characters dying every 15 minutes. And then in four you have, you know, really they're kind of a first attempt at showing like a love story a little bit and kind of having this almost like a love triangle with with Kane. And then six is just that's the to me, that's the chef's kiss of a Final Fantasy. But yeah, it's it's it. I mean, six is by far my favorite. I've played probably two thirds of them at this point. I never PlayStation as a kid, so I missed out on the PS ones, but played seven. Ever played eight and nine, I've missed that. Life got in the way, obviously. I'm a 43 year old man now, so I had to have jobs and wife and kids and stuff. The usual trappings. But for my money, six is the one that I won't have to replay for the series, because I have played it to completion easily a dozen times in my life. There's no need for me to go through it again. Anyway, but yeah, I totally agree. I think character is a big part of that. And yeah, I think the story it tries to create in the world, I think that's a pretty good delineation. Come hither good gentlefolk and listen well, for the well read mage has a brand new - oh podcast. So you see doing podcasts, Red. Come hither good gentlefolk and listen well, for the well read mage has a brand new YouTube channel you simply must give a try. GameLogica. Have you ever found yourself mystified at the mysteries of mysticism and myth found in your favorite JRPGs? GameLogica aims to answer those quandaries by examining religion, spirituality, and fable through the lens of our favorite video games. As of this recording, the first three episodes are available and cover topics ranging from Arthurian legend in the Master Sword to the Lovecraftian undertones of the simple Dragon Quest slime. And yes, they all delve into the world of Ridiculous as only the well -read mage can. Check out the show on YouTube and lend your support at patreon .com forward slash game logica. And now it's time to answer the unanswerable question, the most annoying thing you could possibly ask a Final Fantasy fan. I asked a lot of people and got a wide variety of responses. And when I asked these questions, it's not to cause a stir or cause a controversy, but it's really to get to the heart of why Final Fantasy over the course of the last 30 odd years continues to be a staple. in this video game landscape. And the biggest question being, what makes Final Fantasy, Final Fantasy? Is it Chocobo's sit and airships or is it something so much more? Starting off this conversation is Julian followed by comedian Nate McClellan and then Aiden returns to drop some knowledge on this very controversial topic. So I'm gonna ask, I guess, the big question and this is a question I kind of halfway posed on. Twitter and people we know have also posed this as well recently. So I think it kind of dovetails interest well into these conversations. What do you think makes a Final Fantasy game of Final Fantasy? Because it's much different than the Zelda like you mentioned. Like Zelda, there's lots of repeating elements. There's lots of comfort food elements in that series. And that's a good thing or a bad thing, depending on your opinion. But Final Fantasy on its face doesn't seem to. But for some reason, We've always looked to Final Fantasy as that tent pole RPG series. So I guess the question is why? Like why, what about Final Fantasy as a series makes it Final Fantasy, I guess. I think it's the fact that you can't really define it. I think it, you know, from the jump, it's like every game. I mean, so I'm replaying them with through the pixel remasters right now. And it's like, you can definitely look at Final Fantasy one through six and. no matter which one you're looking at, you can be like, oh, that's a Final Fantasy game, right? Like once you've seen one, like, it's very striking. But even with like Final Fantasy 2 being fairly different from one, it's still recognizable as the sequel to that. But I think depending on who you are, when you jumped in, what your first game was, that answer is going to be different for everyone. I think even the way that Square defines Final Fantasy, like, is kind of, you know, I don't agree with the way that Square... I identify with it because they around the like after 13, I think they said that their definition of a Final Fantasy game is like gorgeous beauty magic. And I forget what the third tent pole was, but like none of it had to do with like role playing or character or story, which is that that's what I think of when I think of Final Fantasy. I think of fantasy elements, I think of strong characters, I think of a compelling story and I think of amazing music. Uh, and then, you know, some sort of like RPG mechanic and, you know, I, it's interesting trying to define RPG as a mechanic or as a genre these days, because I think a lot of it has been shoehorned into so many different games, but also the, the actual like Genesis of the role playing game from the pen and paper thing that is so different from what video game role playing games are where it. You know, our video game RPGs are very much about like a set of like rules and not necessarily about the freedom of creating a character and creating a world and doing kind of whatever you want to do based on the success of the dice. So they're so different. But, you know, for most of my life, I've defined an RPG as the video game console version, not the pen and paper, you know, origin stuff. on it a little bit but the music for sure. I've never played Final Fantasy that has had bad music which surprised me like even going through like the NES ones. I was like oh the music isn't probably as good but no there's some bangers in there. So good music. I was also surprised at the story like one doesn't really have a story but two there is a story there so storytelling with the characters as like uh i mean it i don't know it sounds dumb but like the the storytelling where it really focuses on characters and it's not just like your four nameless people like they're characters who have like personality and like thoughts and opinions on the world around them i would say turn-based combat uh that was like a big thing for the longest time but Honestly, like with 16, I think, you know, I loved 16. The only gripe I had with the combat is like they just took out like the elemental weaknesses. So like you like no monsters had elemental weaknesses, which was kind of a bummer. But it also lets you just pick like the coolest icons, you know, and use their abilities. But yeah, I think that's that's pretty much. Like for me when I think of Final Fantasy, it's those kind of three things where the combat is always gonna be, even the combat is like really fun and engaging. It's almost the fact that the games are so different is the deciding factor, right? Which is interesting. That's kind of like, it's not something you'd expect really. I like that concept that they have tried to move on with the times. They've tried to evolve over the years. And I think that's really lends itself to that. And I think it's interesting you mentioned about how the creators of the genre are still around. Like, imagine if you could ask Mozart, hey Mozart, what do you think about the Barbie soundtrack? and have and get a real opinion. Like it really reminds me that the games are so new as an art form. They're just infancy, but they're growing so fast because of technology and everything else. It is very unique from like an art history standpoint. I think that's actually interesting. Yeah. And it's like, you know, the book that I wrote, I specifically like centered it on the fan experience and purposefully didn't. try to dig into like, you know, the creator experience, because I think that's a totally different story. But along the way, you get those developer insights. And I found like, what was most interesting was going back and looking at what they were saying, like in the eighties about some of these new Final Fantasies and stuff like that. And they weren't beating down, you know, the door on like, oh, this is just fun. You know, like Final Fantasy five isn't just Final Fantasy four, but better. It's, you know, we have this job system, we have this, we have, you know, like something that's focusing on, you know, Creativity for the player and stuff like that and so just even the way that they were thinking about those games back then changed my perception of of what I felt like it should be Well, the first half of Final Fantasy 6 is very linear, right and people remember the second half. That's okay nonlinear But I think it was like one of the first set like, you know It really started to see this idea and then Final Fantasy 7 took it that you know, you would have this sort of linear novel or film like You know story progression whether you're you're moving forward, right? and You can't, you know, you can't backtrack even if you wanted to. And seven kind of established that, especially in Midgar. And then by 10, 10 is sort of a straight line. And then 13 is like, you know, famously a hallway simulator. Right. Basically, you know, so you see that and it's like, oh, like, you know, Final Fantasy 13 is just a hallway simulator. Like what happened to the series? And it's like, well, it just kind of got focus tested into oblivion. Right. So they had this, this like emphasis on putting cinematic story above all else. And the best way to do that is to have a limited linear narrative structure. And I think you can trace that all the way back to what Final Fantasy VI was doing in its first half. Sure. Yeah. And I think there's nothing really wrong with that as long as that hallway is a lot of fun. Right? As long as the hallway is good, I'll go down the hallway, make it really fun and good, and I'm down with the hallway. I'll take a focused, curated experience over a wide rambling one if it's a quality experience. And I think 13... It's not my favorite of the series, but I like it fine. I didn't play 13, two or three. I try 13, two and the time travel stuff just, I just totally broke my brand. Like I am not interested in it. And then of course not 13. I'll eventually have to do for this show for this series. I'll get in. I have a lot. I stuff some holes to fill in my final fantasy, love and fandom. And rounding out this episode of A Gamer Looks at 40, our initial foray into the world of Final Fantasy with a few more thoughts about what makes a Final Fantasy Final Fantasy, the one and only Games with Coffee and the one and only Professor Noctis. So having experienced this entire, um, the entire series, I mean, you really have experienced the entire series. I'm going to ask you maybe the dumbest question. You can ask in a Final Fantasy conversation. There are no stupid questions. Oh, no, no, no, this might be, this might be, but I think it's one that people ask all the time and I don't think there's a great answer. So I'm curious of what your take is. What makes a Final Fantasy a Final Fantasy? Oh boy. Okay. What makes a Final Fantasy a Final Fantasy? Um, okay. I might be cheating a little bit here and I'm going to borrow, I'm going to borrow the answer from Professor Noctis. our editor -in -chief at the Pexels. Shout out to my boy there, if you're listening. And I think what makes a Final Fantasy a Final Fantasy is its cyclical nature. See, in every Final Fantasy, there is some sort of cycle that needs to be broken. In Final Fantasy I, it was the infinite time loop. Final Fantasy II is a cycle of an empire basically taking over the world. Final Fantasy 3, the light kind of encroached way too much and we need some darkness to bring it all back. So it's a cycle restoring the balance between light and dark. Final Fantasy 4, the cycle of hatred between brothers, between family. Final Fantasy 5, let me see, that was next death, he was a tree, he was an evil tree. So there's some sort of cycle in that. I don't remember, I have not played five in the longest time. That's actually next on my list. Oh yeah, I forgot, I do have the Pixel Remasters as well too. There you go. So before Final Fantasy XVI, all the Final Fantasy Pixel Remasters. Got those. Right. And then there's also OG Final Fantasy on the NES. NES classics, I forgot about that one too. That would have been before the Pixel Remasters, which I beat actually recently. OG Final Fantasy, first time ever beating it. I've had it for years and I've never beaten it and I've actually finally like, okay, I'm gonna sit down and I'm beat it. Anyway, I digress. But yeah, this is the cyclical nature of the stories that just make Final Fantasy Final Fantasy. Final Fantasy VII, oh man. There's the cycle of life and death of scientific pursuit versus maintaining nature. the use of dangerous human experiments to further scientific achievements. All those things, just that's, to me, that's what Final Fantasy is. Yeah, I think that's a really interesting take. I've never thought of it that way. Final Fantasy generally has themes of rebirth or rejuvenation of a cycle of some sort. Very, very interesting. Again, I got that from Professor Noctis, so if anyone needs credit, it's that guy. Professor Noctis, that is a man I need to speak to. I gotta talk to the professor. Oh my god, you gotta talk to Prof. I know. That's who all the guys gotta talk to. Totally, totally. First, let's talk a little bit some generalities about the series itself. So Final Fantasy obviously spawns 30 years of games from traditional turn -based to now modern day. We're more into like the action RPG style. What of this Final Fantasy series, what do you think? And I'm not gonna say what makes a Final Fantasy game a Final Fantasy game, because that's too, that is a question that annoys a lot of people and it's a hard one to answer given how different they are. But what would you say some... through line is through the entire series. What are some tent pole things that kind of has to have in order to bear that name? So I actually do a lecture at Bama called, What is Final Fantasy? Because since I teach a class on 15, I get so many students that have never touched a video game and they're like, well, if this is the 15th, what do I need to know about the series? So I take a class and I say, this is what you need to know about Final Fantasy. And so of course we talk about... kind of the common elements and characters across the series, things like Chocobos and Moogles and airships and stuff like that. But those are not necessarily in all of the games. Chocobos start in, I think, two. Cid shows up in two, I think, for the first time. And then you start getting crystals and stuff like that. Even though they're in the first one, they take on different forms. And so I... You know, using an ontological focus, I really look at things between properties and elements, right? And so elements of something are going to be the core of what makes something that thing, right? But the properties aren't necessarily integral, but they are interchangeable. It emphasizes the elements, but it doesn't necessarily have to be present in order for a thing to be a thing. So for instance, you know, a Lexus and a Toyota, they both have steering wheels and they both have wheels and things like that, but they don't necessarily have all of the accessories between them, right? But they're both considered cars. So in the same way with a Final Fantasy, when I talk about the elements, every game I think is going to have some element of story. That's what most people are going to play that. Now, a lot of games have story, but I would contend that the primary theme across all now 16 and counting Final Fantasy games is that there is some breaking of a cycle that is happening, thus making this iteration, your playing of this game, the final cycle or the Final Fantasy. And that's actually shown from the very, very first game when, spoilers, I mean, you are breaking this ongoing cycle. in Final Fantasy I to say this is the last iteration. This reign of terror that keeps going in cyclical fashion ends with this playthrough. I think it's a really interesting piece. You get this across all 16 of them. I actually started doing this lecture before 16 was released. Anytime a new game is released, I'm like, is it going to debunk me? But no, it totally fortified my pieces. That works. I would say that. In addition, you're going to have battle systems. but it doesn't have to be turn -based. It doesn't have to be action, but there does have to be a battle system. Now, I say that and there's going to be like a passive game where there's no battle. It's just like, you know, choose your own adventure or something, determination or something. But there's battle, there's music. I think the final thing is that a Final Fantasy game is going to push the possibilities of presentation. And while most games are using current media, Final Fantasy from the earliest days, Developers from Sakaguchi to Nomura and others, they're all saying when a Final Fantasy game comes out, this is going to be the pinnacle of presentation from a technological, musical, graphical standpoint, voice acting, all of it. We want to be the new limit that maybe our next game will break. And so I think that those things, the story that breaks a cycle, the dedication, to the best presentation in gaming and an active battle, or not an active battle system, but a battle system that's engaging and rooted in the world. I think those are really good. I love your concept of breaking a cycle. That is something that you're right, more than in Moogles and CID and airships. As every Final Fantasy game, and I've played most of them at this point, once I get to the later ones, I didn't have a PlayStation as a kid, so I didn't play like eight or nine as a kid. But... Everyone I play, you're right, has that idea of breaking a cycle of, yeah, of the final iteration. I think that's a really interesting idea. And I'm sure it wasn't intentional. Why do you think that presents itself so clearly in all the games? Well, I would argue that it is intentional. Because it's so heavy -handed. I mean, from the first one, when they say they're breaking this unending cycle, and the first one is like, OK, that's neat, and that's why it's called... besides like the meta narrative of why it's called final fantasy and development and stuff. That is a great reason for it to be called final fantasy. Like this is your final version of this. But then with two, you see, you know, an end of imperial oppression, right? Like, and it's been this ongoing cycle that even takes you into a place called pandemonium, which is, you know, a place of all demons. That's, that's what it means. Pandemonium. So, A Place of All Demons. This has been a cycle that emerged even from Hell in 2. You see this again in 3, you see it in 4, but with 4, I mean, it rifts on it a little bit more, talking about this ongoing cycle of hatred. And you see it manifesting in characters like Gulbaz and finally, Zeromis. But all of this ends in a cycle. And even my personal research, With Final Fantasy XV, this is the end of a kingship narrative, of usurpation and unlawful kingship that finally satisfies the divine war that has been ongoing. I mean, it's an incredible narrative. A lot of people are like, no, it's just you and your bachelor party bros going around, but it becomes cosmic, which I just think is amazing. And most Final Fantasy games do go that route. And I think it's actually... not the worst idea to do that route either because it connects you to characters first and now you have this narrative that kind of goes places like you said. We are just getting started. That's how in work this is. That's how living this is. So be sure to check it out and be sure to tell a friend if you enjoy the show. Go to a gamer looks at 40 .com for everything you need for this podcast, including a section for a full podcast series. There you can check out a working running playlist for this series, the earthbound series, the legend of Zelda and tales from the bargain bin. I finally have a place to collect these things, which is. really cool and very exciting. And finally, check me out in the socials, leave a rating review wherever you happen to be listening to this, and until next time, just be kind to yourselves and each other.